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Author |
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1/15/03 17:33 |
Skip Caswell |
I've been doing some digging around trying to find information on NP
freight operations on the west end, specifically between Pasco and Spokane
from the 40's to merger. My
information might be somewhat lacking or incorrect, so corrections would be
appreciated Thus far trains 602, 603,
607, 611 and a seasonal fruit train all ran thru Pasco and Spokane. Train 603 normally had two sections Train
602 had three sections and the fruit train There were also extras and those
were numbered either east and west with the engine number. There are some good books on passenger
operations but has anyone written and anything on freight operations. Compiler G Tarbox |
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1/15/03 20:44 |
Bill Kuebler |
Just to help avoid possible confusion about a technical matter...
During most, if not all, of the years you're interested in, freight trains in
the 600-series operating between St. Paul and Auburn (or points between)
actually operated as extras, as in "Extra 7000D West", etc.
Operationally--train orders and rules wise--they were not regular trains;
they were extras. Here, "regular" means being authorized to run by
a schedule in the Employee's Timetable. Even though these trains were extras,
the NP did publish "schedules" for them in various documents that
were not operational in nature, but mostly for advertising and Traffic
Department purposes. These freight train "schedules" also appeared
in some public timetables. They were primarily for general reference, but the
NP did try to adhere fairly closely to those published schedules, even though
the trains were operated as extras. As an example, during the 1960s the 601
and 603 trains would each show up at Dilworth (near where I grew up) within a
certain 30-45 minute window just about every day. They were very consistent,
and it was unusual for one of those trains to show up at some other time,
especially in decent weather. Eastbound trains in the 600 series were less
consistent arriving Dilworth, because they had accumulated various delays
while running across the system. But even they were quite often fairly
consistent, especially train 600. I remember occasions when 600 would show up
at nearly the same time for days (nights, after 1963) in a row. Well before the diesel era, some of the
600-series freights were regular trains (with operational schedules). Those
trains were then known generally as "time freights," a phrase
sometimes applied to them by NP men even in later years when those trains
were running as extras. I don't recall at the moment when the practice of
running them by timetable authority ended, but perhaps Jim Fredrickson or
Dave Sprau might have that information handy. It was long before my time and
probably well before WWII. Compiler G Tarbox |
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1/15/03 20:55 |
Jim Fredrickson |
Missing from your list are:
600 Auburn to Northtown
(Hotshot) 606 Auburn to Laurel
(Ancestor was the YL Manifest); 610
Pasco to Northtown; 601
Northtown to Auburn (highest priority) There were fairly frequent Box Car Specials going west which
were numbered from the beginning of the year, ie BCS 25 for the 25th one out
of Northtown. There were a lot more loaded cars going east than came back
loaded west so for car supply they had to return them empty. There were Dead
Freights west with low priority traffic. In my earlier days there was a J
Manifest eastbound almost every day. It handled all of the open loads of
lumber, double and triple loads of poles, etc., and was limited to 35 MPH.
There were ongoing changes over the years with 602 and 603 enjoying the
greatest longevity. Forgot to mention the glorious years of Silk trains and
Cherry Specials as well as Stock Specials, Lettuce Specials, etc., etc. Buried somewhere in the basement I have a
system master time table showing everything ca 1945 and if it ever comes to
the surface will let you know. Compiler G Tarbox |
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1/15/03 22:23 |
Jim Fredrickson |
This gets a little confusing but the 600-series trains were scheduled
but not in the employee time tables. Dispatchers filed a telegraphic report to the General Superintendent of
Transportation in St. Paul for each of them at each terminal . This
"X-3" would show reasons for delays if they didn't make scheduled
running time. St. Paul made a morning situation report to the general
officers showing how trains performed. We did the same thing on a division
level for the Superintendent and his staff.
In a day or so when I get this table uncluttered will send a sample to
the list if anyone is interested. Compiler G Tarbox
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1/15/03 18:23 |
John Phillips |
Skip Caswell wrote:
There are some good books on passenger operations but has anyone written and anything on freight operations...
For books and photos I would try Sanders' _Northern Pacific_ and Kuebler's _Northern Pacific Color
Pictorial Volume Three_. A follow-on
would be _Mainstreeter_ Volume 13, Number 2 (Spring, 1994). This includes Staeheli, Glenn, and
William R. Kuebler, Jr. _Episodes on
the Idaho East_. This applies to Spokane-Paradise, but you should be able to extrapolate some
information from it. Most of these are available from the NPRHA Company Store
at the following
URL:http://www.nprr.org/ It looks
like the _Mainstreeter_ is sold out for this issue, but I am sure the Store would be happy to run off a
photocopy for you. You may have to
watch E-bay or search a used book store Web site for Kuebler's _Northern Pacific. references, literature, freights Compiler
C Frissell |
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12/24/01 9:11 |
Dick Eisfeller |
One minor
correction on this. I checked schedules and they show #604 originating at
Missoula and #614 at Laurel. In any case only one of these trains would run
through Jamestown in 1969. Also one member asked me in a private email about
the number of trains on the NP and GN before and after the merger. Below is
my answer to that email again with one correction. West of Casselton the GN had four and sometimes five
scheduled through freights in each direction including extras before the
merger. The NP had four to six and once in a while seven each way the merger.
After the merger the number of scheduled through freights (not counting coal
which was beginning to move on this line) on the NP main between Dilworth and
Laurel was reduced to two each way (this number was actually three scheduled
freights each way, not two) with the other traffic now running on the GN main
across northern Montana which averaged around seven each way after the
merger. I have data and some personal observations on all of this. The
increase in traffic right after the merger was wood product business on the
SP&S or north of Vancouver, WA that wad been turned over to the SP or UP
before the merger and was now running all the way on BN. The number of trains
into Pasco on the former SP&S increased by at least one or freights in each
direction after the merger. Keywords
schedules,time table, freights.
Compiler C Frissell |
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12/23/01 15:11 |
Dick Eisfeller |
I couldn't resist
commenting on this thread as it is my specialty. First a little background.
My first visit to the NP around Dilworth and Casselton, my favorite hangout,
was in 1966. I made several trips there in the next three years. I also
managed in late 1973 to get quite a few wheel reports (consists) from
Jamestown showing all NP trains into and out of Jamestown at different times
in 1969. I worte an article for the NPRHS, similar to ones that I wrote for
the GNRHS, covering operations in Jamestown but it was never published. Among
other problems I had no pictures to accompany the article. Anyway I am quite familar with the trains
that NP ran between Dilworth and Jamestown in 1969. Also I am pretty sure
that NP #601 along with GN's #97 and their connection in the Twin Cities,
CB&Q #97 from Chicago, were begun in November of 1963, about a month
after the Milwaukee began the first westbound with third evening arrival out
of Chicago on the West Coast, train #261, on 10/26/63. The CB&Q had a #97
before that date but not on the same expedited schedule. In the late 1960's,
don't know about before then, NP #606 was a Pasco to Laurel train, connecting
with the CB&Q there. In 1969 NP
ran the following freights between Dilworth and Jamestown:Westbounds:#601.
The hottest westbound, usually almost all loads. Usually had some autos, 5 to
10 flats of trailers, and 5 - 15 boxes of forwarder merchandise and LCL
freight for the Tri-Cities (Pasco) and Portland and Seattle. On Thursdays out
of Northtown this train ran as #1/603.#603. This secondary westbound hot shot
often ran in two sections, 20 minutes to two hours apart. On Thursdays the
regular or first section would run as #2/603. #603 would carry some autos and
meat along with other loads and would pickup or set out hot cars at places
such as Dilworth and Jamestown.#605. Northtown to Laurel drag. As described
before this train worked at all division points enroute (Jamestown, Mandan,
Dickinson, Glendive, Forsyth.BCSO. This was the "Boxcar Special"
out of Staples (telegraph call signals SO) and was all empty boxes, lumber
flats, and reefers for Yardley (Spokane) and beyond. Apparently other extras
whose symbols I don't have brought empties to Staples for the BCSO's. From
none to two of these ran per day.EXDH. This was a westbound drag that
originated in Dilworth, the former #635 train. This train would have some
loads but was mostly empties blocked for each division point along the way.
At least one EXDH ran per day and sometimes a second one. DH was the
telegraph call letters for Dilworth.
In addition you had the Cohasset coal train (loads east, empties west)
that was given to the GN at Fargo to take to the Minneapolis, Power, and
Light plant at Cohassett, MN.Occasionally an extra west or dead freight west
would be run that looked for all the world like an EXDH.Eastbounds:#600 and
#610. As stated before #600 and #610 were the hottest eastobunds with perishables,
wood products, empty autos, and some piggyback in two blocks - CB&Q and
Northtown mixed. Towards the end of the week two sections of #610 might be
run. One of my NP thrills was to see #601, #600, and two sections of #610
hammer the diamonds at the GN crossing in St. Cloud in a two hour period just
about dawn in the fall of 1969 with all trains running around 60 per.#620.
This train originated at Yardley and ran sporadically, usually towards the
end of the week if at all. It was 80 to 90% loaded lumber and ran in two
sections a few times in 1969. This train was always very heavy and had a
similar schedule to #600 and #610 but usually was 4 to 12 hours late into
Dilworth. From my records #618 wasn't running in 1969. #602. This was the
secondary eastbound manifest from Pasco to Northtown. It ran four to seven
days a week and was occasionally superseded by a #620.#604/#614. One of these
trains would be run, never both or a second section. I believe that #604
originated in Pasco and #614 at Laurel. This train would carry many cars of
stock in the fall. #700. This was the drag from Mandan to Dilworth as
mentioned before. #700 could have as many as 120 loads of coal or grain into
Dilworth and would work at all division points. This train ran daily except that
once in a while if light on tonnage it would be combined with another train,
usually #602.One question I have is solid stock trains on the NP. I have no
records of solid stock trains on this part of the NP. Were they run and about
how many cars would they carry. For comparison the GN ran their stock in
regular trains east of Minot with as many as 73 cars of stock in one train as
late as the fall of 1968. This added
up to four to seven through freights in each direction between Dilworth and
Jamestown. I would appreciate any
comments, corections, or additions to this.
Key wods schedules,time table, freights Compiler C Frissell |
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3/6/02 6:02 |
Dick Eisfeller |
Freight forwarder
traffic definitely does not refer to TOFC or COFC traffic. The freight forwarders of the 1950's (companies such
as Acme Carloading, Superior
Carloading, Western Carloading, U.S.
Freight, Clipper Express) and 1960's were the less than full truckload truckers of their day, handling
large packages and less than full
truckload shipments between freight houses where they would be sorted. Remember when truckers were
regulated they couldn't just carry
manufactured goods, as opposed to unregulated agricultural goods, anywhere they wanted to. Few
truckers could carry goods from Coast
to Coast. Regional truckers would have to hand their business off to another regionsl trucker to carry
it a long distance. The freight
forwarders had the authority, if it was needed, to do local pick up and delivery while the railroads
would handle the long haul. The
freight houses in a given metropolitan area would be located on one railroad giving that railroad the
business. This business was also
mostly westbound and was considered to be highly profitable while it lasted. In the 1950's most medium
and long distance moves would be by
rail but LTL truckers such as Yellow Freight were beginning to infringe on their business. The great freight
train speedups in 1958 and 1959 (1963
to the Pacific Northwest) helped the
freight forwarders keep their long distance business until the
early 1970's. The only freight
forwarder who has "survived" albeit it in a much different form, is Clipper Express
who now specializes in perishables as
part of ABF, a LTL trucker. In the late 1960's forwarders began moving some of that business to piggyback but
most was still handled in boxcars. I
don't have data from the 1950's on
who had what freight forwarder business in the Northwest, but the freight houses for most of the forwarders
at least in the 1960's in the state
of Washington were located on the UP, GN, and SP&S. I do have data in the form of freight train
consists from the late 1960's for the
GN, NP, MILW, and UP. Then GN had probably 40%, UP about 30%, NP about 15% and the Milwaukee only a
few per cent of the long distance
freight forwarder business to the Pacific Northwest. The 65% forwarder merchandise figure below for
the Milwaukee in 1950 in my somewhat
expert opinion is highly suspect.
freight forwarder LCL less-than-carload 1960s 1950s LTL
GN MILW SP&S SPS UP
piggyback TOFC COFC truckers trucking Compiler
C Frissell |