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04/21/01 10:44 |
D. T. Sprau |
Chuck and Allan: I am no expert on this subject AND I could even
be wrong too, but I have my doubts that NP actually segregated coal at Easton
with a view toward putting Roslyn Coal into engines that would be working the
hill and Colstrip coal into road engines going east. However I can believe
that depending on availability they may have played musical chairs with the
coal. I talked to a few engineers in the 1960s about their firing days (all
deceased now) and they said the kind of coal they would get at various supply
sources was the luck of the draw. Sometimes tenders and bunkers had pockets
of different kinds and I recall their saying that going from one kind of coal
to another in mid trip would radically change their firing procedures and
habits. Sometimes good - sometimes not very pleasant. I think they told me
also that one brand of coal, cant remember if they said Colstrip or Rosebud,
was mostly shale or at least the stuff that got given the rr for the engines
was mostly shale, and of course they hated it. I never heard anything bad
said about Roslyn coal. As to the Crocker and Wilkeson Branches, though I am
sure that Wilkeson and Carbonado coal made its way into NP engines, both branches
should have been a branch of the Southern Pacific (station Crocker named for
Chas Crocker, one of the big 3) because the SP Co was the chief consumer of
the coal and I think had controlling interest in some of the mines as well -
I remember reading or being told that most of the coal off those bchs was
billed "1976" - Tacoma - for loading into SP ships destination San
Francisco for their steam engines. There might still be some old conductors
and engineers living who could tell us something more about this, I will see
if I can find one or two. Colstrip
Rosebud firing Easton Roslyn Southern Pacific SP Compiler
C Frissell |
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04/24/01 11:04 |
John Phillips |
TELL TALE EXTRA: There's Coal In Them Thar Hills! If you have further additions, please send
an e-mail message to me at mailto:whstlpnk@i... Alter, Peter T. Coal Town: Immigrant Miners In Wilkeson,
Washington. Seattle [Wash.]: M. A. University of Washington, 1992. Arsanto, Peter. History of Wilkeson,
Pierce County, Washington. [N. P.]: privately published, 1947. Ash, S. H. Explosions in Washington Coal
Mines. Washington, D.C.: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1931. Beikman, Helen M., Howard D. Gower, and
Toni A.M. Dana. Coal Reserves of Washington. Olympia [Wash.]: Division of
Mines and Geology, 1961. Benson, Paul
Thomas, and Arthur Edward Williams. Washing Tests On Lady Wellington Coal
From Spiketon, Pierce County, Washington. Seattle [Wash.]: B. S. University
of Washington, 1912. Collier, A. J.
"Coal Resources Of Cowlitz River Valley, Cowlitz And Lewis Counties,
Washington." United States Geological Survey Bulletin 531-1. Washington,
D.C.: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1913. Corey, Theron B. "The Coal Fields of Western
Washington." Journal of the Illinois Mining Institute. Volume II, Number
1, May, 1893. Culver, Harold E.
"The Coal Fields of Southwestern Washington." Washington Geological
Survey Bulletin 19, 1913. Daniels,
Joseph, "Coal In Washington: Distribution, Geology, Mining, Preparation,
Uses, and Economic Value." Bulletin University of Washington Engineering
Experiment Station Report 3, 1934.
----. The Coal Fields of Pierce County. Olympia [Wash.]: Frank M.
Lamborn, 1914. Dart, John Olney. The
Geography of the Roslyn-Cle Elum Coal Field. Seattle [Wash.]: M. A.
University of Washington, 1948.
Evans, George Watkin. The Coal Fields of King County. Olympia [Wash.]:
E. L. Boardman, 1912. Green, Stephen
H. Coal and Coal Mining in Washington. Olympia [Wash.]: State Printing Plant,
1943. Hall, Nancy Irene. Carbon River
Coal Company. Orting [Wash.]: privately published, 1994. ----. Dateline: Wilkeson. South Prairie
[Wash.]: Meico Associates, 1984.
Jacobin, Louis. A Glimpse Of The Charmed Land, Being A Supplement To
The Wilkeson Record, The Black Diamond Echo And The South Prairie Sun.
Seattle [Wash.]: Community Publishing, 1925.
Kittitas County Centennial Committee. A History of Kittitas County,
Washington, 1989. Ellensburg [Wash.]: The Committee, 1989. Landes, Henry. "The Coal Fields of
Pierce County." Washington Geological Survey, Bulletin 10, 1914. Lorenz, Laura. Historical Sketch of the
Greater Maple Valley Area. Maple Valley [Wash.]: Dotson Printing, 1976. Lyman, William Dennison. History of the Yakima
Valley, Washington; Comprising Yakima, Kittitas, and Benton Counties. Chicago
[Ill.]: S. J. Clarke, 1919. Moore,
Ernest, and Gloria Phelps. The Coal Miner Who Came West. Seattle [Wash.]:
Ernest Moore, 1982. N. A. An
Illustrated History Of Klickitat, Yakima And Kittitas Counties; With An
Outline Of The Early History Of The State Of Washington. Chicago [Ill.]:
Interstate Publishing, 1904. Pifer,
Drury Augustus Poindexter. Froth-Flotation Of Coal From Fairfax Mine, Pierce
County, Washington. Seattle [Wash.]: B. S. University of Washington, 1930. Praeter, Yvonne. Cascade Mountain Colliery
Explosion At Roslyn, Washington Claims 45 Coal Miners' Lives May 10, 1892.
Ellensburg [Wash]: Central Washington University, 1994. Roberts, Albert E. Geology and Coal
Resources of the Toledo-Castle Rock District Cowlitz and Lewis Counties,
Washington. Washington, D.C.: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1958. Roslyn Community Study. Spawn of Coal
Dust. History report [of the] Proceedings Operation Uplift. Seattle [Wash.]:
Operation Uplift, Bureau of Community Development, University of Washington,
1955. Rushton, Alice. The History of
the Town of Orting; 1854-1981. Orting [Wash.]: privately published, n.
d. Shedd, Solon, Olaf P. Jenkins, and
Herschel H. Cooper. "Iron Ores, Fuels and Fluxes of Washington."
[Washington State Department of Conservation] Division of Geology Bulletin
27, 1922. Shedd, Solon. "The
Iron Ores Of Washington." Washington Geological Survey Annual Report,
1901. Olympia [Wash.]: State Printing Plant, 1902. Shedd, Solon and George Watkin Evans. Mineral Resources Of
Washington With Statistics For 1922. Olympia [Wash.]: Frank M. Lamborn,
1924. Shideler, John C. Coal Towns In
The Cascades: A Centennial History Of Roslyn And Cle Elum, Washington.
Spokane [Wash.]: Melior Publications, 1986.
Slauson, Morda C. One Hundred Years Along the Cedar. Renton [Wash.]:
privately published, 1968. ----.
Renton: From Coal to Jets. Renton [Wash.]: Renton Historical Society,
1976 Smith, Gary W. A Profile Of The
Kittitas County Economy : Growth, Structure, And Cyclical Change, 1965-84.
Pullman [Wash.]: Washington State University Cooperative Extension,
1986. Snavely, Parke, R. D. Brown,
Jr., Albert Roberts, and W. W. Rau. "Geology And Coal Resources Of The
Centralia-Chehalis District Washington." USGS Bulletin 10533.
Washington, D.C.: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1958. United States, Bonneville Power
Administration. Wilkeson Area Coal Study, Pierce County, Washington. Portland
[Ore.]: U. S. Area Redevelopment Administration, 1963. United States, Geological Survey.
Evaluation Of The Wilkeson-Carbonado Coal Field, Pierce County, Washington,
For Hydraulic Coal Mining. Denver Colo.]: U. S. Geological Survey, 1980. Vine, James D. Geology and Coal Resources
of the Cumberland, Hobart, and Maple Valley Quadrangles, King County,
Washington. Washington, D.C.: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1969. Vonheeder, Ellis R. Strippable And
Underground Coal Resources On Washington Department Of Natural Resources
Administered Land, Cowlitz County, Washington. Olympia [Wash.]: Washington
Dept. of Natural Resources, Division of Geology and Earth Resources,
1977. ----. Strippable And
Underground Coal Resources On Washington Department Of Natural Resources
Administered Lands, Kittitas County, Washington. Olympia [Wash.]: Department
of Natural Resources, Division of Geology and Earth Resources, 1978. ----. Strippable And Underground Coal
Resources On Washington Department Of Natural Resources Administered Land,
Lewis County And Thurston County, Washington. Olympia [Wash.]: Washington
Dept. of Natural Resources, Division of Geology and Earth Resources,
1977. ----. Strippable And
Underground Coal Resources On Washington Department Of Natural Resources
Administered Land, Pierce County, Washington. Olympia [Wash.]: Washington, Division
of Geology and Earth Resources, 1979.
----. Strippable And Underground Coal Resources On Washington
Department Of Natural Resources Administered Land, Skagit County, Washington.
Olympia [Wash.]: Washington Dept. of Natural Resources, Division of Geology
and Earth Resources, 1978. ----. Strippable
And Underground Coal Resources On Washington Department Of Natural Resources
Administered Land, Whatcom County, Washington. Olympia [Wash.]: Washington
Dept. of Natural Resources, Division of Geology and Earth Resources, 1977. Woodruff, E. G. Coal Fields in Idaho,
Washington and Oregon. Washington, D.C.: U. S. Government Printing Office,
1914. U. S. Government Printing Office, 1914. Literature sources history
mining Compiler C Frissell |
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09/28/01 11:50 |
Steve Barkley |
I think that most of the
NP's coal came from their own mines located in Colstrip, Montana. Colstrip is located east of Billings on a
branch from Forsyth. The coal was bituminous, almost lignite,
which is why the NP's engines had
large fireboxes. I don't know
how many trains, etc., were used.
Colstrip Montana fireboxes bituminous
Compiler C Frissell |
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09/29/01 9:17 |
Dick Carlson |
Yes, coal was mined at
Chestnut, MT. I do not know if any was used by the NP, although the NP did
have a rail yard at Chestnut. Chestnut was the first city in Montana to have
fire hydrants. When I was there in 1965, you could still see the fire
hydrants on the hill side where the city once was, some foundations of
buildings, and several coke ovens were still standing. If you stood on the
mine dump at the top of the hill, you could look down at what was the rail
yard. All that was left were where the ties were but it must have been a
pretty good sized yard. Compiler C Frissell |
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09/29/01 15:46 |
John E. Moore |
In a message dated
9/29/2001 11:21:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
res0d2fz@v... writes: >
coal was mined at Chestnut, MT. I do not know if any was used by the NP, > although the NP did have a rail yard
at Chestnut. The coke probably had
several delivery points on the NP. Holly Sugar, located in Sidney, Montana would have been a
customer. Both coke and limestone were
delivered in large lots during the fall and winter for sugar beet
processing. The coke was used to heat
the limestone producing lime for purification of the raw beets after they had been sliced. Great Western Sugar,
located at Billings, if my memory is
correct, would have been another customer for the coke. Colstrip coal was also delivered to Sidney to the MDU
Power Plant located south of town on
the Yellowstone River. As I remember this was called Lignite and it was ground to a powder to
be blown into the boiler fireboxes.
They used to have a big rig that clamped itself to the top of the car
and lifted and shook the car to
facilitate unloading. Both Holly Sugar and MDU generated some fairly heavy coal and coke traffic on the Sidney
branch especially during the winter.
I do not remember any coal traffic off of the GN lines, mainly because all the coal deposits were owned by NP
and located on the main or branches
that were NP. There were a lot of old abandoned coal mines in eastern Montana and in Richland
County. It seems as if just about
everybody who used coal in Montana obtained it locally and within the
state, almost all of it being
lignite. Another side to the coal was the use of the burned out surface veins of lignite. The
material was the result of an exposed
vein being ignited by either lightning, or a prairie fire and was called scorio (I may have misspelled it).
The scorio was used to surface
secondary dirt roads resulting in the red colored roads seen in some
areas of eastern Montana. Sidney
Montana Holly Sugar lignite coke Colstrip Billings Yellowstone River MDU
sugar beet processing Compiler C Frissell |
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09/29/01 18:23 |
Bryan Bandli |
Ayvini wrote: > Another side to the coal was the use
of the >burned out surface veins
of lignite. The material was the result of an >exposed vein being ignited by either lightning, or a
prairie fire and was >called
scorio (I may have misspelled it). The scorio was used to surface >secondary dirt roads resulting in the
red colored roads seen in some areas of
>eastern Montana. > As a
geologist I feel compelled to add....
Scorio (actually spelled scoria) is a misnomer for this rock, even
though it is referred to locally as "scoria". Scoria is a volcanic
rock similar to pumice. But this rock is technically called clinker and is a
result of clay rich sediments being baked by burning underground coal beds.
It is a kind of natural brick, but as far as uses, surfacing roads is the
only one I am aware of. Does anyone know if it was used as ballast for the
along the NP, as it was probably the most resistant rock type in this region?
scoria ballast clinker Compiler C Frissell |
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9/29/01 18:32 |
Dan Stinson |
Referring to Chestnut coal, Ayvini@a... writes, "The coke
probably had several delivery points
on the NP. Holly Sugar, located in Sidney,
Montana would have been a customer.
Both coke and limestone" <snip>
IIRC, Chestnut coal was bituminous coal - much harder and thus
better suited for coking. There were many beehive coke
ovens up Trail Creek quite a
ways above (south of)
Chestnut, and this suggests that the mines also extended to the south
of Chestnut. AFAIK, no rails were laid up Trail Creek, so this
coke would most likely have been hauled by wagon to Chestnut for shipment
along with Chestnut coal. And don't forget that there were coal
mines around Red Lodge that also produced harder coal.
(It's named Carbon County for
good reason.) The NP was using
lignite and sub-bituminous from Colstrip to
burn in their locomotives
because the price was better than anything that could be bought from
the Chestnut or Red Lodge mines. The harder coal would most
likely have gone to industrial customers. I can't say if this coal or coke was used for sugar
production or not, but I would suggest comparing dates on these two
activities. The coke was produced about the time that the Anaconda and Butte
Smelters were going pretty
strong and before the big
smelter in Anaconda was converted to natural gas. (For the sake of
discussion, let's just say up to WW II .) I'm not sure how much
sugar production in Montana was going on at that time. I've heard stories
that the coal and coke was more likely used at the Anaconda Company's (and
predecessors') smelters.
Another user would have been the cement plants in western Montana.
The Red Devil plant at Trident and the plant at Montana City would have
been big users. I suspect Eastern Montana plants could probably have gotten
coal and coke from the midwest by rail, and probably at better
prices. Your comment about scoria
is a good one, and helps point out the
problems of travel in eastern
Montana before the advent of paved roads. Good aggregate was very
difficult to find, so roads could become almost impassable when it
rained. This scoria was the result of overlying clay layers being 'fired' by underlying burning coal to a porcelain-like material which was
(and still is) much used for road surfacing. This brings up another question - where did the NP obtain
suitable ballast for it's lines in eastern Montana? Was it
brought in from other states, did they have some pits with rock, or perhaps
did they dredge and crush river cobble?
bituminous coke lignite scoria
Chestnut Trident Montana City ballast
Compiler C Frissell |
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09/29/01 18:50 |
Muncel (
VisionsofIron) |
Thank you to everyone who has contributed to describing where NP
coal was located. Yes, I am aware of
the fact that Rosebud coal is low-grade stuff and the reason for the large fireboxes, particularly with the Z-5
through Z-8 locomotives. I think it
is generally agreed that if higher grade bituminous coal had been readily available for use by the NP, the
Yellowstone and Challenger
locomotives would have blown the socks off most any steam locomotives ever built. I found the description of burning of
surface veins to be really
interesting. I was unaware of anything like that taking place on the
Great Plains. I have read accounts
about dried out peat bogs in England catching fire with the fire moving deep underground where it may burn
for very long periods of time
(years?). Peat, I believe, is next in line to being a very poor grade "coal." Does anyone
know if there are any coal deposits of grades higher than lignite in Montana? If so, are any of
these being developed and mined like
the Powder River mines in Wyoming? On the other hand, having low grade
coal may turn out to actually be a
blessing to Montana in that strip mining vast areas may not be economically feasible. Leaving the landscape
for other long-term sustainable
developments may, in the long term, be more of an economic benefit to the state. Montana Z-5 Z-8 Challenger Yellowstone fireboxes Compiler
C Frissell |
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09/30/01 13:45 |
Don Hoffman |
There was coal operation near the town of Roundup, Montana -
Musselshell county, and the Republic Coal Company had an operation that
covered over 300+ acres. There was also a cemetrey just south of Roundup that
was operated by the miner's Union. It appeared to have been there a long time
and was contained many graves. I believe that the coal was mined and not
stripped. This coal may have been used by the Great Northern but I have
distant thoughts of hearing my Dad, who worked for the NP, speak of using Roundup
Coal and Rosebud coal. Anyone else have thoughts about coal sources in
Montana? GN Great Northern fireboxes steam
Roundup, Great Northern GN Musselshell Compiler C Frissell |
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09/30/01 14:33 |
John E. Moore |
I have heard that the GN
did have two coaling towers at certain division points. East bound used one and west bound the other. Evidently
the BTUs were higher for the West
bound coal than the East. I have heard stories told of more than a few &*%$#@ words being
said by GN fireman firing west with a load
of the wrong coal in the tender caused when the hostler got em mixed
up. Evidently the NP engines with the
bigger fireboxes were less picky on what
they were fed. Also a number of SP&S old timers have said that the
NP engines, they acquired were better
steamers than the GN types. Probably again
due to the bigger firebox now converted to oil. Compiler
C Frissell |
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10/01/01 16:55 |
Ted Schnepf |
Roundup was on the
Milwaukee and those mines supplied coal for Milw steamers in Montana, Dakotas and Minnesota as well as
commercial needs. These were
underground shaft mines. Ted At 01:45 PM 9/30/01 -0600, you wrote:
>Other Coal sites? >List >There was coal operation near the town of
Roundup, Montana - Musselshell >county, and the Republic Coal Company had
an operation that covered over >300+ acres. There was also a cemetrey just
south of Roundup that was >operated by the miner's Union. It appeared to
have been there a long >time and was contained many graves. I believe that
the coal was mined >and not stripped. This coal may have been used by the
Great Northern but >I have distant thoughts of hearing my Dad, who worked
for the NP, speak >of using Roundup Coal and Rosebud coal. Anyone else
have thoughts about >coal sources in Montana? > Compiler Roundup, Milwaukee MILW mines Montana C Frissell |
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03/12/02 16:58 |
John Phillips |
A good person to speak to
regarding Kittitas County resources on the
Cle Elum-Roslyn-Ronald mines is:
Musso, III, Louis Heritage Development
Coordinator Coal Mines Trail Commission Post Office Box 187 Cle Elum, Washington 98922 (509) 674-2644 mussol@i... Mr. Musso
distributed a small guide book on area mines at the last NP meeting in Auburn. He may have a few more
of these on hand. It includes a
number of interesting photographs of the mine facilities. If I recall correctly, Louis said that
one of the better collections of
area photographs is held by the Ellensburg Public Library. If Joan Neslund notices this, she may be able to
add some comments as to their holdings.
In addition, another resource may be the Kittitas County Assessor's Office. (I am not sure anyone has ever
tapped this resource, but it might
be a treasure-trove of Kittitas County
information.) Cle Elum
Washington Roslyn Ronald Mines Kittitas County sources Compiler
C Frissell |
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04/22/02 22:02 |
Chuck Soule |
JP3 asked about a bibliography regarding coal. I was mostly
shooting from the hip based on 25 years as a professional geologist. I did
some work in the Roslyn area about 1990 (surface and groundwater geology, not
coal), but I changed employers since then and do not have ready access to the
pertinent references. The Washington Department of Natural Resources has a
number of bulletins from the last century dealing with coal fields of
Washington. The bulletins would be available at most local college libraries.
The DNR office in Lacey not only has the bulletins, but also has coal field
maps. Some of those might show railroad features, although they are generally
"stope maps" of the underground workings. I know that Roslyn and Western WA coal was bituminous coal,
which has more BTUs than Colstrip or Rosebud coal, which was lignite, or soft
coal. The lignite was mined by open strip mine, and probably had shale mixed
in with it (ence Dave Sprau's comment). Lignite was much cheaper to mine, but
needed a much bigger firebox to burn in order to generate enough heat to make
the loco steam properly. Hence the design of the Z-5s and later engines. I have not looked back into my old
Mainstreeters for the issue, but I remember a story about an fireman who was
given an engine with an accidental load of lignite at Easton or Ellensburg
and fought a nasty fire the whole way to Auburn. As I recall the story, when
the loco got to Auburn the brass was waiting to pin the blame on the fireman,
but the engineer stuck up for him 100 percent, and he wasn't sacked. I don't know what practice was made at
Easton, Cle Elum or Ellensburg to put different grades of coal in different pockets.
Can Jim Fredrickson or someone give us more info? Logically, they should have
done something, because the engines assigned over Stampede couldn't burn
lignite efficiently, and the engines designed to burn lignite would
potentially get too hot burning bituminous coal. Maybe there was nothing more
than the luck of the draw that Dave Sprau's friends indicated. Regarding coal users, I am sure there
were customers in California who received whole shiploads of coal. Info
provided by JP3 and Dave Sprau indicates Central Pacific/Southern Pacific was
a major customer. As far as fueling steamships, I don't have any specific
information. However, many ships called in Tacoma, and after a long voyage,
they certainly needed coal (most oceangoing steamers burned coal before WWI,
and many did up to about WWII). Tacoma had coal docks, and I have no doubt
the railroad was more than willing to sell it to them for bunker fuel. It
would be interesting to find out the range of customers and volumes. The info is probably buried in files at
the Minnesota Historical Society if you can only figure out where to look. My
bet would be under Northwest Improvement Co. records. Roslyn lignite firebox
Compiler C Frissell |